Thursday, March 6, 2014

Schlesinger Twins: Who is Dr. Michael Schlesinger?

I have posted many articles regarding the Schlesinger twins and I still find this case difficult to understand or justify. updated and corrected
click link for transcript of facts reported in Parliament

The basic  facts are that when Beth and Michael got married she moved from England and settled in his community in Vienna.  They are both highly intelligent. They have twin boys. Apparently the marriage had significant problems from the beginning. Beth claims she was having serious doubts about the marriage because of what she claims was his strange and abusive - both physically and psychologically - behavior. (She claims for example that he prevented her from using the bath room at night.) The marriage official fell apart after the twins were 8 months old (after 3.5 years).

At that point Michael - who is a medical doctor - tried unsuccessfully to have Beth committed to a mental hospital. Beth received full custody of the twins with Dr. Schlesinger having supervised visits. After a year there was a custody trial by a judge (Susanne Göttlicher) who did not know Schlesinger, but, higher court judge Konstanze Thau (who has no legal position in the case) was a family friend of Schlesinger's, and was advising him as admitted by Schlesinger in court and documented in the court transcripts. The judge gave a totally unexpected ruled - based on a psychological evaluation by a psychiatrist who is alleged to have connections with the Schlesinger family - that full custody was given to Michael.

The court-appointed psychiatrist who heavily criticized Beth in her report was Dr Ulrike Willinger (this was the underpinning reason for the transfer of custody in 2011). She was an employee of Konstanta Thau's husband, Kenneth Thau (who is himself a psychiatrist) at AKH hospital: http://www.akhwien.at/default.aspx?pid=285 . Dr Willinger has been discredited in other custody cases where she has been heavily critical of the mother's parenting skills, and a subsequent court-commissioned report by Dr Werner Leixnering states: “Neither at the time of the examination nor at any point in the past, has [Beth] suffered from any form of mental illness.” http://helpbeth.org/london-jewish-news-16-11-2012/

 Beth has supervised handovers for which she must pay 50 euros. This means that both Beth and Mr Schlesinger have to go to a "family center" at the start and end of each visit so that they don't meet each other. Once the transfer is complete, Beth is allowed the visit to be unsupervised and to take the children away for the length of the visit. In practice, the handover doesn't actually need to be done by a "family center". Beth could pick them up from the Kindergarten for example or take up Chief Rabbi Eisenberg's offer to do the handover at the Stadttempel under his supervision. In actual fact, the family center have regularly failed to protect Beth from Mr Schlesinger's verbal abuse at the start and end of the visits.
Beth reports that her children have significantly deteriorated in Michael's custody where they are being raised by two non-Jewish women. For example their front teeth were extracted because of decay that occurred after they moved in with their father. They are functioning significantly behind their age level in language and in fact don't speak normally. It is not clear how they are doing in the Chabad school they attend since the school refuses to divulge any information to Beth. There are reports that they don't wear kippos or tzitzis Furthermore Beth reports that at times Michael arbitrarily cancels visits because of various claims he has against her.

It is difficult to me to understand what justification there is denying the children their mother  and instead raising them with non-Jewish babysitters. It is difficult to understand why Beth should be denied knowledge about how they are doing in school. It is strange that the Jewish community should tolerate this situation.

It seems obvious that there is a need for an outside evaluation of the children. This in fact was ordered by the court - but has never been implemented. It is also strange that Dr. Schlesinger has not been evaluated for his mental health and competence as a parent.

In the name of fairness, I would welcome a guest post by Dr. Schlesinger explaining his side of the story and why he thinks it is important that Beth not be given a normal relationship with her children and what is the basis for the reports about the twins developmental and language problems. Obviously he has a different understanding then she - and it would be helpful if he or one of his supporters explained his side of the story. It would also be helpful if some of his background could be provided - such as where he works and why he thinks the marriage fell apart so quickly despite appearing to be such a promising relationship.

242 comments :

  1. Here is some more explanation about the court case:

    http://helpbeth.org/british-parliament-14th-january-2014-highlights-and-discussion/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. the explanation is in the court papers, why does not the "mother" publish it. And: the court as well as the authorities who know the father decided in his favour.People who know him and the "mother" are on his side. Let her give you the reports, read what it says about the children when they were with their "mother". By the way: who are you, I could not see a name with the blog. What you do is really bad, very bad. It is far from what is called jewish behaviour.

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    2. Do you know who konstanze thau is? Please could you explain her relationship with Dr Schlesinger's family.

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    3. She's easily googled! Doesn't look good:
      www.wikilegia.info/wiki/index.php?title=Mundtot_durch_Entmuendigung

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    4. Sorry this is in German but it's a story (v plausibie) about K Thau being accused of abuse of her position of authority as a judge by an elderly lady who felt this had happened to her.

      Delete
  2. In another coup for Rabbi Eidensohn (and to Rabbi Shternbuch on the bounce - kli shaini). First you besmirch person A then you conclude by stating " In the name of fairness, I would welcome a guest post..." so that he can defend himself. You already buried the guy and now you want to resurrect him?
    And you call this "In all fairness"?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sir,

      Dr. Michael Schlesinger is burying his children in his attempt to bury their mother.

      Delete
    2. think First - if you dispute the facts presented - then please do so. If you are just complaining that it is unfair to publish accurate information to protect the welfare of children - then I suggest you go back and study elementary halacha.

      Delete
    3. I'd like to dispute some facts: I have seen them in kindergarten and they were wearing kippot!

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    4. Well, aren't you clever, sarah! There's obviously someone around who reads this blog (and posts on it?) and has dressed them appropriately for their kindergarten at last!

      Delete
  3. How can a site who calls herself daattorah publish such a low class and unjewish article ? Ever heard of lashon hara?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. mr "rabbi" if you wish to dispute facts please do so - but to simply dismiss information regarding the welfare of children as lashon harah is simply evil.

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    2. Did you ever see the children? Do you know the mother is telling the truth? Do you have any information by others than the mother? In other blogs people who know the children say they are developping very well. Maybe they were neglected when they were with her mother? Maybe this is why they were taken away from her? Don´t you ever reflect why all the courts decided the children are better with the father? And one more issue: a divorce is not a public affair, it is a private one. If she wants to go public and likes her role, it is her decision. But if the father does not react, you have to respect it, and leave him and the children privacy....He is the one who protects the children, the mother simply uses them. And if you were intersted in the children´s welfare; you would simply stop your campaign.

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    3. wait, how is this post helping the children again?!

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    4. Which other blogs say the children are doing well? Are you referring to anonymous postings in daas Torah??? Is that really a reliable source for such an important assertion??

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    5. Many of us have reflected on why the children were given to the father, "rabbi", and our conclusions are that this was a miscarriage of justice and flawed proceedings in Vienna. There is no reason to stop any campaign. If a mother doesn't get justice through the courts, she has to fight for her children's rights in other ways. This blog is a wonderful way for it to be brought to the public's notice and I highly commend Rabbi Eidensohn for what he is doing.

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    6. Very interestingly, 'Daas Torah' was accused of loshon hora, not motzi shem ra. To be oyver the lav of loshon hora you need to be telling the truth. Can we assume therefore that "rabbi" actually agrees that the accusations in the article are correct?

      Delete
  4. Chochma Bina Daas - Seichel?March 6, 2014 at 8:22 PM

    Here is the explanation:

    "You are not just a fool, but an ignorant one!"

    "You are anti-Chabad!"

    Don't you understand, that us Chabadskers know that rather these children attend Chabad and be underdeveloped then that they grow up normally and to be normal humans - if they aren't in Chabad.

    That's we support the father. He is Chabad and sends the boys to Chabad.

    That is why we don't support the mother. She is not Chabad and has not yet agreed to send the kids to Chabad.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hello, the father is not chabad. The chabad kindergarten is a top notch kindergarten and children all across the religious spectrum go there.
      It even has a waiting list.

      Stop drinking the cool aid people.

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    2. Chochma Bina Daas - Seichel? "us Chabadskers know that rather these children attend Chabad and be underdeveloped then that they grow up normally and to be normal humans - if they aren't in Chabad." What kind of fool are you? You are obviously a bigot and don't care about the welfare of the boys at all. Don't you want them to lead normal, happy lives? Separated from their mother 6 days and 7 nights a week, they can't possibly be thriving. AND IT MEANS NOTHING TO YOU! I I THINK YOU MUST BE A SOCIOPATH.

      Delete
    3. Sarah,

      The father is not Chabad? How do you define Chabad. He davens in Rabbi Biderman's Chabad shul. He has recently served as a sheliach tzibur there. He is clearly chabad. (To what degree is irrelevant)

      Waiting list?

      As for your projection about kool aid - how about you purge yourself of what you have drunk.

      Thank you for responding to Rabbi Eidenson's post. How about a guest post, "Sarah"?

      Delete
  5. Honestly, best is for the father to ignore this. He is right not to add anything to this public smear campaign, Anything he would say, will anyway be twisted around and used against him. B''H it is the courts making the decision and not some mob.

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    Replies
    1. But Sarah, it would be better if he described his position here openly rather than posting venom under pseudonyms, don't you think?

      Delete
    2. Sarah,

      Or, he can just have you come on here and post that he should "ignore" it. Hmmm.

      Thank you for responding. Shows a lot for you and Chabad-Austria.

      Delete
  6. In Vienna, we all know and see, that the kids are best cared for by the father, We don't need to see his statement here, which will probably be used against him anyway, by your commentators. We all have seen how terribly neglected the children were under her care. For example their teeth. They were completely rotten, while she had them and the kids were visibly underweight. No wonder, the father won custody.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why should we believe you? If what you are saying is true, then email it to Daas Torah as a guest post under your own name.

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    2. Sissy - where is your evidence that the children were neglected in Beth's care? I don't think you'll find it because, once again, someone from Team Schlesinger is lying. I don't think you can be very nice people at all. Do you all lie at work etc as well?

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  7. Do you really think it would be wise to discuss the twin's speech developent issues on a public blog, while citing their full name?

    Do you really think, that it if Dr. Schlesinger has custody because of psychological issues of his ex-wife, it would be wise to discuss it on a public blog, while fully identifying her?

    What can the custodian parent do but ignore a public blog discussing their situation?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why then, don't you ask Mr Schlesinger to use this comment by "patience" as the basis for his guest post? That seems reasonable enough to me.

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    2. Patience you either have not been following this discussion or your liberal values are overcoming seichel. If in fact the only way to protect the twins is by publicly discussing it then why should it be kept a secret?

      His wife is the one who has inititated this discussion because she feels that more private pathways have not helped. She has identified herself to the public.

      Delete
    3. If, Patience, you suggest that Dr S has custody because of psychological issues of his wife's, then you are contributing to a lie and are joining in this discussion just to get a thrill from seeing your posting here. PLEASE READ ALL THE PREVIOUS PAGES!

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  8. This campaign against the father has to be stopped. And the children do not need to be exposed to the public. They are doing very well being with the father, who really cares for them. The decision by the austrian courts has to be respected. If you had seen the children when they were with the mother, you would know why the father won custody.

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    Replies
    1. how can you say the children are doing well with the father? if they were doing so well why cant they speak and communicate properly at their ages? they should be absolutely fluent by now. Do you also know they apparently speak 3 languages? german English and hebrew.. this is all lies... they hardly speak at all.
      how can any doctor or professional person say the children can speak 3 languages when they can just about speak 1 language and very few words.
      what I dont understans is why the community in vienna do not try and help the situation for the sake of the boys instead of making their lives so hard. answer that one please

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    2. I heard an Austrian child neurologist who is highly unlikely to be able to speak Hebrew claimed that the children could speak it. He ought to be ashamed of himself for writing down what others (who?) dictated to him.

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    3. "Chaya",

      Hmm. How about all the vile comments you have made about the mother on this very site? Why are you afraid of this conversation.

      If you are then kindly, and respectfully, embrace the truth.

      Delete
  9. Daas Torah is Loshon Horah devoid in your scholarly learning's?
    Perhaps your personal short comings should be publicly memorialized on the world wide web.
    But then again you have no short comings or non that you can think of for sure.

    Why do you bother to go to Shul on Yom Kippur?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. your comment is rather strange. If in fact the allegations are true then why shouldn't they be publicized to change the situation?

      your hysterical comment indicates that you know nothing about lashon harah

      Delete
    2. Please leave Rabbi Eidensohn in peace, all you people who are so impolite and not the slightest bit interested in Sammy's and Benji's welfare.

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    3. Things that are known by three or more people cannot be Loshon Hora. That is Halocho.

      Your comment merely demonstrates lack of knowledge.

      Delete
  10. First you insult the Chief Rabbi Eisenberg of Vienna and now you are insulting Rabbi Eidensohn. An absolute disgrace. You cant't defend
    the father's bizaar and unreasonable behaviour without an attack! Would
    you all be defending Chabad if all the generous funding were to stop?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Perhaps Lev Leviev, as we understand that you are a donar to the Jewish community in Vienna together with Ronald Lauder, we can respectfully
    request a meeting in London. We would like to discuss why Rabbi Biderman has closed ranks with the Jewish community against a young
    Jewish English girl.
    She may have, bizaarly, lost a court
    case thus giving cusody to her
    abusive husband, but how can anyone
    condone the Jewish community's behaviour in Vienna and lack of
    respect to the mother, her children and
    indeed the Chief Rabbi of Vienna and
    Rabbi Eidensohn who runs this
    fantastic blog!
    Perhaps we can contact you privately?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Apparently the good and carrying mother wants to uphold the opinion that her children are not developped, and do not speak, and so on. Her supporters do not want to accept what people who know the father and see the children tell. OK. You also do not want to accept that most people in Vienna came to the conclusion that the mother is not the angel she believes she is. The court has made a decision, accept it or not. As it probably does not make sense to react if you do not admire the mother, it is best to leave this blog to team beth. It is like in certain circles: no other opinion allowed!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. goodbye - it is interesting to note that Dr. Schlesinger's supporters fail to address issues and focus on calling Beth a liar and "not an angel".

      This failure to focus on the issues by Dr Schlesinger's supporters creates the consistent impression that they really don't have a meaningful response.

      Your accusation that I don't allow any other opinions except for Beth's is absurd. Didn't you notice that I approved your comment and many others like it that attack Beth?!.

      Delete
    2. The father's supporters have quite a different agenda from other people posting here. Theirs is to belittle the mother as much as they can. goodbye - do you really believe the only people who see the children are the father, his family and supporters? You seem to be ignoring basic facts, like that the mother sees the boys regularly (when allowed by the father).

      Delete
  13. When you arrange a meeting with Lev Leviev perhaps you can suggest the following:

     

    1)      That the teachers in the school are too scared to speak out about the state of the children, in fear of losing their jobs. As they are not qualified, it may be hard for them to find another one.

    2)      The parents are too scared to speak out because they  are all being funded by Chabad  and if they lose their funded places, where will they send their children to school?

    Unless we are told to the contrary, these are the obvious reason why people are ranking together against a young mother and her two highly vulnerable children, who clearly need their mother in their lives,  as their own children and all other children do!

     

     

     

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you might have hit the nail on the head, Leon. Frightened parents and teachers at the Chabad kindergarten in Vienna - highly likely. As we've seen, only one parent has dared to speak up, using a pseudonym because she's scared to be identified for telling the truth. Is this the kind of atmosphere Sammy and Benji are being subjected to? Lev Leviev might be very shocked to think he's financing kindergarten places in an institution bearing the name Chabad but which promotes a reign of terror.

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    2. pardon my language, but this absolute [censored DT] ! I have a son in the kindergarten and the teachers are highly qualified, warm, loving, professional! The chabad kindergarten is most sought after- there's a waiting list! Every single one of the teachers has a degree and can easily find anohter job elsewhere. Where do you even get these ideas?

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    3. Degrees in what?

      Delete
  14. save the childrenMarch 7, 2014 at 12:24 PM

    I urge every one to reread the topic before making further comments!!

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  15. Corruption, bribery, hate of a loving young mother, a determination to ruin the lives of these beautiful children with their mummy, what really is going on here. After reading some of the comments, I really do not think Sammy and Benji should be in the same proximity of any of these characters. Action must be taken.

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  16. "This failure to focus on the issues by Dr Schlesinger's supporters creates the
    consistent impression that they really don't have a meaningful response."

    Really?

    Where is it 'geshribben' that they have to respond to you? Who are you? Their Rav?
    Their Beis Din? ?Just because you run a gossip column does that mean they have to respond?

    Is this logic what it takes to get a ?PHD?

    I don't know these people (The Dr. or the Mrs) but this post does not even pass for gossip.

    ReplyDelete
  17. What does the Vienna Beth Din Say? The Manchester Beth Din has made issued a public open letter. Does the Vienna Beth Din condone disrespect to their Chief Rabbi and endorse the vile behaviour to a mother and in effect her children? Let's hear what they have to say!

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  18. If Chaya what you say is right and the children are doing well, perhaps the you, the father and Austria Jewish community would like to extend a
    welcome to a few of Beth's supporters and, of course, Beth. Next week,Purim, would be a good time. I am sure there
    will be a Purim party which we,
    including the boys, can attend?

    ReplyDelete
  19. chaim weissmandlMarch 9, 2014 at 1:50 AM

    if you welcome information by his supporters, why were all my comments containing such information deleted?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. you mean why did I delete comments like the following:

      I am from vienna and must say that the court was right: Beth does have a mental problem, going crazy in public places. She did not take care of her kids properly (it was under her care, that the kids developed toot decay, so that the teeth had to be extracted). 6 Lawyers had left her already, due to her mental instability. You have to work hard as a mother in Austria to actually loose a custody case.

      You make a lot of nasty assertions without providing any support and from what I have researched your charges are false

      Delete
    2. daas torah if you would do research you would know that every word of chaim is right.

      Delete
    3. Would you or anyone of Dr. Schlesingers supporters like to write a guest post with documentation for your assertions? Anyone can claim that you are mentally ill etc - please provide proof!

      Delete
    4. Health Warning from a FriendMarch 11, 2014 at 5:41 AM

      I'm a supporter of Beth's right to custody of the twins. I demonstrated outside the Austrian embassy in London in the pouring rain. Few of you can say that...

      I believe the father has a case to answer, as do the Viennese Jewish community (including, particularly, Chabad).

      But if I was the father I'd not comment on this blog because the publisher has already made his mind up without even hearing from the other side of the debate. The tone and content of the article are so one-sided that it makes a pro-Beth person actually feel some (albeit small amount of) empathy with the father where previously I had none. The author of this blog, with no more accurate source of information than publicly available to me, has stepped over the line to further his own political agenda.

      I am pretty sure my comments will not get through censorship, but I'm going to say it anyway. The Help Beth camp does itself no favours in aligning itself with oddballs with their own agendas, like 'Daas Torah'. The phrase 'my enemy's enemy is my friend' has led to some of the most unhealthy and destructive alliances. The best thing Beth and Adrian can do is to put as much distance between their campaign and 'Daas Torah' as possible.

      Delete
    5. There is an old saying if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

      Delete
    6. Chochma Bina Daas - Seichel?March 11, 2014 at 11:15 AM

      "I'm a supporter of Beth's right to custody of the twins. "

      Yet then does the regular attack that has been so typical of Schlesinger's hench men:

      "The author of this blog, with no more accurate source of information than publicly available to me, has stepped over the line to further his own political agenda."

      "I am pretty sure my comments will not get through censorship, but I'm going to say it anyway."

      Ok. I get it. This is the "truth" the good doctor and Chabad of Austria would have us believe. Hmmm.

      Delete
  20. Please be more civil!March 9, 2014 at 2:05 AM

    Hi Rav Eidensohn and shavua tov. you don't need to publish this comment but, as you know, I have contributed to this discussion in the past. Do you not think that the comments in this and other threads are getting a bit 'over the top' and offensively personal? I think many of them are unsuitable for a religious blog. I understand if you don't wish to be too much of a censor bit could you make a plea for basic courtesy to be respected. One can have strong views and robust discussion without descending to abuse

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree with you that the comments should be more civil and focused on the facts. However I have not been stricter because I think it is important to understand what the issues are and how the two sides view the issues. In particular what Beth is up against and the hatred that her opponents have towards her.

      Delete
  21. Why not invite us to Vienna as Rochel suggested instead of making abusive comments. We only want to make Shalom.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Victoria FrankelMarch 9, 2014 at 2:31 PM

    Rifka and Rochel, what an excellent idea, maybe a delegation from the UK comprising of a mixture of people including mothers, grandmothers, whoever is able to make such a trip. The aim yes to make Shalom, and sort this very messy business up for the sake of the children, Beth, and not forgetting all the Alexander side of the family. These children cannot grow up not knowing their loving UK family relatives and friends. I would hope the Schlesinger camp would be supportive of this. Hopefully we will find out if any of them support this suggestion. I look forward to receiving their comments. Thank you.

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  23. Great forum. Open the lines of communication. Expose it all. Speak up anyone from the local community who has daily contact with the boys. Would love to help this situation. Mentally ill mothers worldwide (although I am not suggesting that Beth is) are able to be with their children. I grew up with a mentally ill father and he is amazing and I not too bad myself. Bring the children back into their mothers arms already

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  24. thank goodness for this forum....we need to speak up...people from the community should post more.kids should be with their Mums....mental illness (and im not suggesting that beth is mentally ill) is not a criminal offense. I grew up with mentally ill parents and love them. This whole story is enough to make people mentally ill. What can we do to help

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  25. Mental illness might be bearable as long as the kids are not physically neglected, as what happened here. Beth should publish the court papers. No further docs needed. As simple as that.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I bet,she will not do. Why should she? The world believes waht she says, and she has publicity among people who do not know the persons acting. And@daattorah: you ask the fathers supporters to prove what they write. Did you check the story before publishing? did you check if the allegations are true? Could you bring a prove for what you write? Or do you just drop names, being beth´s voice? As a rabbi you should have a responsibility.

      Delete
    2. @telling and all the other who support Dr. Schlesinger and feel a need to defame Beth.

      Yes I have checked out facts. Let's take an elementary one. Dr. Schlesinger tried having Beth committed to a mental hospital. He got a therapist to establish that she was mentally ill and not a fit parent.

      She was not in fact committed, she is not and was not mentally ill. she is allowed unsupervised visits with her children. Something which is incredible if she is mentally ill.

      This false accusation of mental illness alone is an indication that Dr. Schlesinger is not focused on the facts, is not being fair to Beth and surely is not being fair to the children. yes I do have additional sources that further support what Beth has written.

      Given the facts as they have been established and given the questions that both sides have raised - the obvious solution is to have all parties examined by impartial experts and decide what is appropriate.

      It would be helpful if Dr. Schlesinger and his supporters could do more than keep repeating that Beth is mentally ill (she is not). That she is a bad mother (she is not). Please state what your issues are with Beth and what is your justification for your assertions. Why you think having the twins raised by maids is better than having Beth raise them. Please disprove Beth's accusations that the twins are not developing properly with a neutral psychologists report. If Dr. Schlesinger was not perceived by the police as being abusive why was he only allowed supervised visits with the twins?

      In short, there is enough publicly available information that would upset any intelligent person . The way to resolve this conflict in the best interest of the children is to have proper psychological evaluation of the twins and Dr. Schlesinger. Why hasn't he had this done already?

      Delete
    3. It is really obvious that you are on beth´side only. Neither mr. schlesinger nor his supporters need to prove something. Can you prove that the children are not developped? Can you prove that beth was able to take care of them Can you prove they are raised by two philipinos?can you prove there was bribery involved? The whole community is against beth, the judges were influenced against her, so was the psychologist. Isn´t that strange?

      Alone how you answer to postings that are not in beth´s favour shows that a discussion is not possible, and probably not wanted.

      It might be helpful for you if you will only have

      Delete
    4. And: the only way in the interest of the children would be to stop exposing them to the public......

      Delete
    5. @telling what makes you an expert on this matter. Are you Dr. Schlesinger's sister? are you are a therapist. If the children are suffering from the present arrangement then they need neutral assessment to determine the problems and suggest a resolution.

      If you want this matter taken off my blog then get the Doctor to agree to testing for himself and the children by a neutral therapist. If the therapist in fact concludes that my publicizing the matter is harmful to the children then I will agree to follow the directives of the therapist. Why is that so difficult - for an intelligent open minded person who is only interested in the best interest of the twin - to agree to?

      Of course if the therapist says that it is in the best interest of the children to be raised by the mother instead of maids - then I assume you would agree that the doctor should comply with the findings?

      Delete
    6. @telling you obviously wrote the above post in a state of rage - I really had trouble understanding some of your sentences.

      you wrote:
      It is really obvious that you are on beth´side only. Neither mr. schlesinger nor his supporters need to prove something.

      you are wrong, I am not on Beth's side or Michael's. I am interested in the welfare of the children. If you feel that I am harming their interestings by publicizing this material - you can silence me very quickly by having a neutral psychologist evaluate the kids and say that my comments and postings are harmful to the kids. It is really that simple.

      It is also that simple that if Dr. Schlesinger really cares about the twins rather than hurting Beth - than he will also have himself evaluated and let neutral psychologists decide what is the best arrangement for custody.

      Is that clear enough for you?

      Delete
    7. Hey, Simple! I knew the kids when they were in Beth's custody. They were little darlings. Just like the others at play group - smart, healthy, clean and tidy. And Beth no different than the other mums. So can it be you have something against Beth to be telling porkies like this?

      Delete
    8. Telling and you others, you fail to recognise that if a young mother has had to flee her home and children to go to the police and spend the night in a refuge for fear of her life, then something terrible MUST have happened. Beth alleges that her husband was physically and mentally violent towards her, which, considering his very strange behaviour on lots of occasions (even here, on this blog, where he, his friends and family are likely to be the ones writing so vindictively), is very likely to have been the case. 20% of the women in Austria have experienced physical or sexual violence at least once at the hands of men, so Beth's allegations don't sound at all far-fetched. The women who land in refuges overnight have almost always suffered aggression from out-of-control males, usually their partners.

      In England and Wales a scheme to let people find out from police if their partner has a history of domestic violence has been brought in.The Domestic Violence Disclosure Scheme - known as Clare's Law - is intended to provide information that could protect someone from being a victim of attack.The scheme allows the police to disclose information on request about a partner's previous history of domestic violence or violent acts. Now doesn't that sound like a good idea? Should Dr Schlesinger be put on the list if this idea ever reaches Austria?

      Delete
    9. while I agree with certain points you mention, I have seen the boys under Beth's care- they were thin and developmentally behind. Perhaps they have issues and neither parent is to blame. But let's not change facts

      Delete
  26. woman who are drug addicts do not have their kids taken away. This is the most bizarre case.. I have 1 question for the schlesinger camp and that is if beth was so mentally unstable then why is she allowed unsupervised visits? surely someone that was so mentally unwell would not be allowed to have these. I would appreciate a response

    ReplyDelete
  27. Answer please: Dont think the Schlesingers will answer your question. The gang on this page seems not to believe the many experts who have declared the mother to be as sane as most of us.

    ReplyDelete
  28. ignorant bypasserMarch 10, 2014 at 6:28 AM

    If Dr Schlesinger is right let him be brave enough to allow outsiders see for themselves that he is right. What should he be afraid of? Then RDE and everyone else would just leave him alone.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nobody would give a damn about a dr in Vienna who doesn't appear to have a job (he hasn't answered DT's question about this) if ...... he were behaving like a normal man post-separation. The trouble is: he's not!

      Delete
  29. Thank you so much for this forum....my heart bleeds for these kids and this Mother no matter what has transpired in the past. Hopefully Beth can read that there are people in this world far and wide who do speak up and are not afraid to address this small sector of the community. The truth will be exposed...hopefully sooner than later. Keep the pressure on and make the effort...this young mother has been through enough and needs our support. Thank goodness I live in a beautiful country and am surrounded by good, honest people with pure intentions. I pray that Beth and her kids can go home ASAP...this woman needs a break from this insane circus of events

    ReplyDelete
  30. @daastora what do you mean with neutral psychologist? As far as i know the children where testet by a neutral psychologist. This was a court order. Why should they be tested again?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When were they tested by a neutral psycholgist? Last I heard that they were not tested - in spite of the fact that the court ordered it.

      Delete
    2. They where tested by a psychologist who was chosen by the court. He or she decided than that the mother neglected the children with the result of underdevelopment and that its better for the children to live with their father

      Delete
    3. naomi we went through this before. Please take the time to read the above posting. The testimony of the court psychologist was contradicted by other psychological assessments. It was the appeals court that said that they should be tested and that testing has not been carried out.

      Delete
    4. Here is some more information about the "justice" system in Austria:

      http://helpbeth.org/appeal-court-judgement/

      Delete
  31. that is not true. not sure where you are getting this informatiom from. can you prove that?

    ReplyDelete
  32. and yet they are still undeveloped so the father equally hasnt done a good job. I hope they get a new judge on this case as they do camp schlesinger may not be as safe as they think they are.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Im sorry to tell you but the appeal court never said anything like that. Or you german is very bad or you got a wrong translation of the court documents. Are you realy a rabi? You seem to believe everything without reading it yourself.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. spoken like a true supporter of Dr. Schlesinger

      Delete
    2. here are the words from the transcript from Parliament which is linked at the top of the post

      In October 2011 — this is a crucial point, because these decisions were never carried out — Beth brought an appeal and the father’s rights were reduced; he was granted only temporary custody. Crucially, the higher court asked for a further investigation, and that reports should be drawn up on the children, the father and the mother. That instruction from the higher court was never carried out, however, and the only reports that were ever produced for Judge Göttlicher’s court were those relating to Beth. As well as asking for those three reports, the father was told by the courts—there is a specific word for this, as is often the case with the German language—to give as much information to the children’s mother. The father was basically asked to tell the mother what the children’s needs were and what was happening, but what actually happened was that he cancelled 50 of Beth’s visits. Rather than him looking after the children, Filipino nannies were hired to do that for 12 hours a day and at weekends, and to take them to and from the nursery. Beth became more and more worried about the children; Samuel had four teeth taken out without any medical reasons given and Benjamin had two teeth removed. Beth was not only worried about what was happening as the visits were cancelled and the children were upset, but it became clear that in the court’s previous decision Judge Göttlicher had suppressed a report from the nursery which had shown, and expressed the view, that when the children were seeing the father they had been crying and screaming, and had been extremely distressed. Clearly, Judge Göttlicher had had that report but it was not used. Things went from bad to worse, in terms not only of access to the children, but finance. Mr Schlesinger stopped paying maintenance and, indeed, tried to demand that Beth paid maintenance. She was now given access only on two afternoons a week and three hours every second Sunday, which represents an extraordinary turnaround from the original situation.

      Delete
    3. Here is some further analysis of the court rulings:

      http://helpbeth.org/appeal-court-judgement/

      Delete
    4. naomi rosenzweig, please do tell us the truth. Would you be able to write up a statement and email to Daas Torah?

      Delete
    5. again, dont know about truth of other statements, but when I have seen the father bring them to kindergarten he speaks to them lovingly and they werent crying.

      Delete
  34. Also the boys, who are going to be five in May, have been kept down a whole school year. Beth cannot be blamed for this because the father has had full
    custody for almost three years! When my son was falling behind, his school asked me to get an outside indepedent
    assessment of him. This, their kindergarten should be insisting on too! The school cannot assume that by keepong the children down, they
    will catch up! If they do not have the
    court ordered assesments, how can
    they be working with the parents, in
    the best interest of the children? The
    school cannot pick and chose when to
    comply with "so called orders" I.e
    denying the mother's involvement in
    her children's education.
    The school nor the father are working in the boys' best interest and the situation cannot be allowed to continue as it is. Accusations keep being made against the mother when all she wants is the best for her children, but the father clearly does
    not!

    ReplyDelete
  35. @ caroline my cousins son is in the same kindergarten group and the same age and he is not kept down a school year. So what are you talking about?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. naomi, most people in the kindergarten disagree with your anonymous comment above and have posted here as such. Either you have misunderstood the truth or something worse. If you want people to believe you (which will be difficult now anyway) then write a guest post to Daas Torah under your proper name.

      Delete
  36. Hahaha "rabi" you are more stupid than i thought. Cant stop loughing about you and your nebech blog.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. naomi if Dr. Schlesinger is related to you than I think there is a genuine concern for a gentic basis for mental illness.

      Delete
  37. No assessments of the children? No invitations being extended to Beth's supporters for Purim ? What are camp Schlesinger hiding? Two little boys
    who desparately need their mother In
    their lives! Why?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Perhaps, as Rachel has suggested, we go to Vienna to see for ourselves.
    We just want to see two healthy little boys Benji and Sammy, and know that
    they are thriving. Then there will not be any need to argue about their
    development. We can bring our
    children and celebrate Purim together.
    How about it?

    ReplyDelete
  39. Ohhhh "rabi" are you insulted now that you are not answering? Hope you dont cry

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. naomi you obviously have a reading problem compounded by a blinding hatred. I provided support for my statement. You have provided none.

      Your delight in throwing insults and your embarrassing sense of superiority says nothing positive about your mental health or stability.

      Delete
    2. Is this how supporters of the Schlesinger family carry out "informed debate"? Finally, people are getting an idea of the type of people Beth is up against in Austria. I wouldn't be surprised if "naomi rosenzweig" is actually Judge Susanne Göttlicher, as the style of language is similar to that used in court.

      Delete
    3. The sort of people Beth is having to deal with in Austria are, to a great extent, people most Austrians would be ashamed of. A judge who awards young children to a violent male who cares more about himself than his children, a father who is more like a member of the "Terrible Twos" than a grown man, rabbis from the chabad sector who support the violent father by their silence. These are not typical Austrians at all. What a bad image they create for the Jewish community and the family court in Vienna!

      Delete
    4. Could you please reread and realize what you are saying: Jews are not typical Austrians; and Austrian would be ashamed of them? What year do we have?

      Delete
  40. Dr. Michael Schlesinger has again refused to allow Beth's her Tuesday visit with her children.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. maybe because she was in Israel?

      Delete
    2. @Simple try again. No she is back in Vienna and was expecting to see her sons today - Tuesday.

      Delete
    3. Simple, there's a Latin expression, "Nomen ist omen", which means a person resembles their name. Looks like it applies here to you! The childish father has cancelled the visit either because he is "angry" once again and is unable to control his anger, or because he hates camels. If the former, he should not have been awarded custody of two young children, and if the latter, he should take a trip to Israel and see what fun visitors can have, sharing camel rides with other tourists!

      Delete
  41. Naomi do you realise how pathetic you sound. Probably not or you wouldn't stoop so low and make such ridiculous statements! What you say
    about your cousins child is complete
    rubbish. Sammy and Benji have been
    kept down in school as they are underachieving in comparison to their
    peers. Their clever father, a doctor? has failed his children! Shame on him!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. they have not been kept down. my son is in their class. It's called a mixed class, familiengruppe, with children both 3.5/4 and 5 in the same class.
      that being said, I think the children are developmentally behind, but when you subvert facts, you lose credibiility

      Delete
    2. Sarah, in Vienna it's usual for children with problems to be in such classes, along with others who don't have problems. So the chances are at least 50% that the twins are there for the first reason. If their father allowed their mother to share her life with them, they'd be speaking well in English and wouldn't need to be in this class for this reason. The fact that they don't speak well in German would indicate that their father and German-speaking relatives are not talking enough to them and the kindergarten is not doing enough to improve their speech in that language.

      Delete
  42. the father is an animal and belongs in a zoo. they should lock the cage and throw the key away. he is punishing his boys and this is clear to the world. why cancel a visit? I guess to hurt the mother and the boys. I am so glad I am happily married as the thought of being married to this man sends shivers down my spine. To the father.. get a grip. wake up and do whats right for your sons and not for you. what goes round comes round. I think u should watch out.

    ReplyDelete
  43. On what basis Rabbi has Dr Michael Schlesinger cancelled Beth's visit? again depriving his children and using them as weapons!!! Perhaps he is
    jealous that Beth took a holiday and
    went to a wedding. We know that the
    father tried horse therapy on the boys
    . Has he tried camel therapy? Then
    again, as the boys are doing so well
    as they have been in the father’s sole
    charges for three years, why should
    they need any therapy at all?
    Any the Jewish community in Vienna side with such a person! Shamebon them too!

    ReplyDelete
  44. Wouldn't it be great if we found out that Dr Schlesinger actually had some sane, honest, intelligent kinds of rellies or friends? If there are any like that out there, do, please, join in the discussion and write something that doesn't make us all burst into hysterics at your so obvious gullibility! We've been either entertained or shocked by "Edith", "franzklammer", "Naomi Rosenzweig" and a number of other clueless and/or bigoted individuals - there must be some others though who can take part in a discussion at a relatively educated level. Please come out of the woodwork! On a camel if you wish...

    ReplyDelete
  45. ANOTHER CANCELLED COURT ORDERED VISIT TODAY MICHAEL?
    Breaking the law Michael again?
    The only therapy that hasn't been tried is MOTHER THERAPY!
    Who are you lot in Vienna thinking about? Certainly not two little children!
    Who's kidding who?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. How does Dr Schlesinger manage to get away with disobeying court orders? What special status does he (or those backing him, eg the chabad rabbis) have? Or, perhaps more relevant, who is protecting him?

      Delete
  46. Debate your're probably right about Judge Susanne Gotlicher! . She is probably quivering in her shoes. How can she ever defend her decision?
    She has not given any balanced and
    logical reasoning. There is no logic to
    any of the behaviour in this case!
    A public enquiry here is what is needed!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The highly-regarded British MPs who commented on the judge's decision were shocked by the flaws in the case. She obviously used highly questionable arguments to produce a blatantly biased decision. This case must be either run again from the start or taken to the European Court of Human Rights. The twins' human rights have been infringed by what this (woman!) judge decided. She probably has nightmares every night after such pathetic arguments.

      Delete
  47. Let me repeat my request.

    I would like a guest post from Dr.Schlesinger or one of his supporters that addresses the issues. His supporters so far come across as abusive personalities that focus on trashing Beth and anyone who stands up to them. People who are more concerned with smirking and showing that they feel superior to the vermin that raise question - then they are with acknowledging that the present custody arrangment is not in the best interest of the twins.There must be substantive issues that intelligent people can disagree about - what are they in this case. There must be someone who doesn't have to resort to ad hominem arguments to explain Dr. Schlesinger's views.

    Included in this essay should be an explanation of why Dr. Schelesinger refuses the chief rabbis's offer to use his house (free) to hand over the twins for visitation and insists on an arrangment which requires Beth to pay 50 euros per visit?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am not in the schlesinger camp, but I see that Beth's supports have equally trashed and villified the schlesinger camp. you cant point fingers when your own camp's posts are equally shameful

      Delete
    2. Sarah - as a self-proclaimed neutral person - perhaps you would like to write a guest post defending Dr. Schlesingers position?

      Delete
    3. The Schlesinger camp is disrespectful and extremely rude (see Naomi R in particular). Surely you can see that from your position on the fence, Sarah!

      Delete
  48. Thank You for keeping this site updated. If theres anyway we can help Beth from Australia let me know. Im also wondering why the community of Austria are so quiet...maybe someone should translate these posts into Austrian and invite them to write in their own language ? Lets keep this site going until someone, anyone human connected with these kids are prepared to get involved

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There are plenty of Austrians posting here, Ev. English is spoken by virtually all young Austrians so they have no trouble reading and writing comments on this blog. Nice of you to be posting from so far away and good of Rabbi Eidensohn to be so concerned about the twins. They are, after all, very young Jewish boys and their community should be doing their utmost to help them instead of turning the other cheek.

      Delete
  49. To be fair, in earlier daas Torah postings on this topic, there were many questions raised and proper debate took place. Unfortunately for Mr Schlesinger and his supporters, every last one of their arguments were refuted multiple times resulting in a bloodbath for his cause. Realizing that they don't want this to happen again, the Schlesingers have resorted to the unusual approach of smear campaigns and incoherent (almost laughable) rants. I would be embarrassed if I had any association with these clowns. Any person who wants to maintain credibility will run 100 miles before publicly standing by Schlesinger. That is why he has no public letters of support like Beth has. Even biderman, who has tried to keep his support secret (but failed), has become a laughing stock by everyone both within and outside chabad.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I find it horrifying to think that there are rabbis in the Vienna community who don't support children who are Jewish. Biderman, Pardes, Eidelman - where are they hiding? Why are they not concerned about the children's welfare? By not saying anything publicly, they are supporting the father, when they must know that the crimes he has committed (trying to have his wife put into a mental hospital, allegedly being so violent that she had to spend a night in a women's refuge, ignoring court orders re visiting) are very real.

      Delete
  50. Sarah, how many children are there in the mixed class. Are they mixed boys and girls? What provisions are in place to help with the boys ?development?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Sarah.. I appreciate you telling us about the classroom situation but can you imagine how these kids feel. Seeing all their friends being picked up by their mummy's and Beth not being allowed to go seeing her only a few hours every week when the father doesnt cancel
    You have children so can you imagine not being able to see them and have only restricted access. If children are unwell they want their mummys and yet Sammy and Benji are being deprived of that
    Even if the parents hate eachother the kids are being used as weapons and they should have both parents in their lives
    Could anyone in the kindergarden try and help.. Sarah you could be the starting point... If you would speak out?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Poor little Benji and Sammy. I've heard they sit there passively and allow themselves to be dressed by a Philippino nanny when they leave kindergarten - AT THE AGE OF JUST ABOUT 5! That's incredible! Children of that age don't have to be dressed! If they were being picked up by their beloved mummy, they'd be doing it all themselves - without a doubt.

      Delete
  52. Does anyone actually care about these poor kids????? Thats the main question here

    ReplyDelete
  53. Who is defending Michsel Schlesinger' s cruel behaviour against the mother of his children. He liked her enough tto marry her and have children with her and without herthe children would
    never have been born! Why does
    anyone think he is a good father? What
    does he do for the boys on a day on day basis? What is he doing to help them catch up on their development?
    If you think he should have custody can you tell us, on his merits only, why?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Who is defending Michsel Schlesinger' s cruel behaviour against the mother of his children?" - Rabbi Biderman is one of those people who is supporting Michael Schlesinger. Try asking him why he is doing it.

      Delete
    2. Ok ahy don't you bring Rabbi Bidermanto the blog , :Who else? I can't see anyone rushing to the Micharl Schlesinger's defence!
      Beth haa proved she has loads of
      supporters, including some in very high places!

      Delete
  54. If the father hates the mother so much, why does he want the children she gave birth to? They must be hard work and would have certainly inherited some of her genes!. Surely he would be better to go and have morre children, born out of love, and give Sammy and Benji to Beth.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Please Act says that Rabbi Biderman hss become a laughing stock. Ne nerds now to come forward not only to say why he is protecting Michael Schlesinger for Michael's sake, but to show credibility in the face of Chabad.

    ReplyDelete
  56. Beth, dear...did you forget that you delivered your boys, when they were not even 2 years old, into that mental hospital in Vienna and asked that hospital to look after your "uneducated" children? Did you forget that it was the father, who saved them? YOU had custody then. Oh, dear Beth...and did you forget that both had BLACK teeth, when the father "took" them from you? How could you forget that they were not able to eat at a table, only on the floor, when they were with you...? Oh, shame....shame...one forgets so quickly. Ah, btw..do you remember when the court thought they would be better off with their father? NO??? I'll tell you. That was when the father insisted that the psychiatric hospital hands them out to him. YOU, dear Beth wanted the hospital to "educate"them, to teach them how to eat proerly at a table andnot from the floor only. You were too weak. You had no ability whatsoever to educate them to become menshen, my dear. That is why the court decided, as they decided. ...Forgot??? And THAT is the truth and nothing but the truth. YOU wanted to get rid of them. Forgot???? What a shame. Anyone who does not believe me, take a look into the court's papers. Anyone who does not believe about the rotten teeth, since dear Beth fed them tons of sweets, take a look into the dentis'ts papers, upon a check up, immediately after the father got the children. This dentist had to anasthethize one of the boys and pull two teeth of a little child, who has been neglected by the "loving mother". Dearest Beth, once and for all...be happy that these little boys are with their father and developing well. They would have stayed the little animals they were, had they stayed with you. And do you know what I hope? That when they grow up, they will never see what you are doing to them with your campaigns on the internet. Ah, before I forget, dear Beth...why don't the children wear yarmulkes or tzitzis on either photos of yours???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Bubbe, if you really believe these sick baseless allegations, why have you resorted to putting them in anonymous comments and not as a guest post under your real name?

      I could spend all day writing the sickest allegations against the father and detailing all his sexual problems, but my comments would be worthless even if true. Allegations should be put in the context of who makes them and their background/involvement.

      Would I rather trust MPs in British Parliament, the British board of Deputies and the Manchester Beis Din...or some clearly non-neutral anonymous commentator with an obvious agenda who has no intention of giving any substance to back up these sick claims?

      All "team Schlesinger" has achieved in this post, is demonstrating the new depths they have shown to have sunk to. They must be getting very desperate indeed.

      I have no further comments, I am utterly disgusted and repulsed.

      Delete
    2. Yes, I very much recommend, that you believe the MPs in British Parliament, who do not know the father, neither in person, nor in email nor at all. But they KNOW...because they are MPs of the honorable British Parliament. I wonder who fed them with all the knowledge. The Manchester Bet Din??? Did they EVER meet Mr. Schlesinger? Please do tell me more details. When did they meet? When did they talk with each other? Ah, you do not know? so where on earth do they have their information from? maybe from you?? And what is YOUR name Mr. or Mrs Disgusted??

      Delete
    3. Was it not your wish that the Schlesinger gang should react in one way or another?? There you are. I hope that you will be able to sleep, so disgusted and repulsed as you are. Have a good cup of tea. That helps, I can assure you.

      Delete
    4. The judge met Dr S but it didn't help. He fooled her too.

      Delete
    5. Play Group, it is clear that YOU were there too, otherwise how would you know that he fooled her??

      Delete
  57. Why does my comment not show???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Because I hadn't moderated it yet.

      Delete
    2. Bubbe, as you have made some very harsh allegations, why not post under your real name? For once in your life, show some backbone instead of hiding behind corrupt people who do your dirty work for you.

      Delete
  58. Harsh you say?? I was being too moderate with respect to this website. Backbone, you say? Mine is fine...and yours?? What do you mean by once in my life? Do I have the pleasure to know you? Or you me?? Corrupt you say?? Sure, for every comment I get 100000 Dollars from the Schlesinger Supporters. And you??

    ReplyDelete




  59. You are the most evil cruel man







    Michael Schlesinger and we Beth's supporters will continue to support Beth.
    Why was Sammy’s mother not invited
    to comfort him when he had four teeth yanked out. Why did she only find out on one of her visits. Not only did Beth have a shock when she caught a glimse of Sammy’s mouth so did Sammy when he saw his mother's shocked face when she wonder
    what had happened to him.
    If you let this happen to two little boys get back at Beth you are evil. The boys may not be able to talk or express themselves, but one day they will!
    Don't even try to publically humiliate
    Bet, because we here in England will
    stand steadfast against you evil
    Ausrians. Just watch us!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Tina Cross, no worries, we ARE watching you!!

      Delete
  60. Is this your evil Purim shpiel Michael Schlesinger. You know what happened to Haman, don't you?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Esther, of course I know what happened to Haman. Remember the miracle of Purim!! The Yiddn were allowed to defend themselves against Haman.Question: Who is Haman here and who the true Yiddn, who seek the truth? Do you know the truth? Did you make ANY research as yet? Or are you just bubbling and bubbling and repeating what you heard from your friend Beth?? I wonder!!!

      Delete
    2. Michael why don't you and I meet up and you can tell me your side of the story. We all only want what is best for the boys. I am
      willing to come there for an amicable and civil conversation.

      Delete
    3. Esther, Dr. Michael Schlesinger is working right now at the Hospital in Vienna. I cannot imagine that he would have any time to be online right now. So no, I am not Dr. Schlesinger. Again, you assume things that cannot be true. Think twice before you write.

      Delete
  61. Bubbe, you are definitely related to Dr Michael Schlesinger. Only a member of the Schlesinger family could possibly write in a public forum on this topic in this foul manner. Do you really expect to be taken seriously? It is absolutely appalling to think that a Viennese judge awarded custody to a man from a family that expresses itself so disgracefully and will be influencing those innocent boys. You undoubtedly imagine that because Dr S has succeeded in duping practically all of the Jewish community, you will also be believed. NO! You won't. Beth's supporters know her and her family. We trust her and have no reason whatsoever not to. She is like us, no matter what religion we have or which country we come from. YOU ARE NOT. Your behaviour is despicable and the style you have chosen to write in gives you away completely. Your whole text consists of lies which no thinking person will take seriously. We support Beth and will always do so.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Really? You DO know the family? Tell me more about them. Who is this family, where do they come from? And NO, I am not related to the family, even I wished I were related to the descendants of Chasam Sofer and Rabbi Akiva Eger. You clearly have your one sided informations from a one sided woman. Clearly you have made no research on the case. Clearly the ony thing you want is to show hatred towards anyone that has a different opinion from yours. You support Beth and I'll continue to support Dr Schlesinger. That's fair enough, is it not?

      Delete
  62. I think that this correspondence is getting too emotional and low vibration to achieve anything. Being fair you have requested that people from camp Schlesinger become involved in this hopefully healthy discussion and give some insight about Dr Schlesinger and his side of the story. So when someone attempts to write information why do you cut them down. If their comments are "evil" or not to your liking let the comments speak for themselves. We are all mature and intelligent people who can come to our own conclusions. If you want open communication and invitations to the community in Austria then change your attitude and allow for a connection to develop. I would like to hear from people who know Dr Schlesinger, the kids and Beth no matter how they decide to write their letters. This forum requires and unbiased unemotional facilitator to make sure that lines of communication stay open and do not just turn into a highschool playground altercation

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. ev Meyer, let me just say thank you for this. It makes me believe in fairness again. You are very right. On the other hand, one wants reactions from the "Schlesinger supperters", on the other hand, if one does comment, one is being condemned. So, again thank you. Hopefully all these comments and replies will be brought up to a different level of communication.

      Delete
  63. Thank you, Rabbi Eidensohn, for using your blog to bring this terrible tragedy to the attention of the wider public. Not only have you shared the facts, you have exposed the sort of people who defend the father (anonymously!) which makes it even clearly on where lie right and wrong in this case.

    I have had the privilege of knowing Beth for 17 years. She is a highly intelligent, tremendously good-natured woman. Her only possible fault is naiveté, a naiveté that led her into this disastrous marriage but of which she has certainly been cured by the reality of the terrible suffering at the hands of the "legal" system and the community that should have protected her.

    This blog has made clear the utter aberrations that would not belong in any judicial systems and the failure of the rabbis, institutions and individuals (with some notable exceptions) to extend to Beth at least some sympathy, let alone support in her struggle.

    But there's much more - about the character of Dr Schlesinger, about the Judge's actions, about the discrediting of the original psychologist, and much more, that has not been disclosed here. I'm confident that one day it will come out, and the world will know that this was a fight between good and evil. I just don't know if that will happen in time for Beth and her boys.

    I am happy to use my real name, Rabbi James Kennard

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    Replies
    1. Rabbi Kennard, I replied to your comment before, but it seems that it has not been published as yet, so let me try again. Since you are a Rabbi, you should know that any Psak Dins of any Beth Din can only be made after hearing BOTH parties. You have known Beth for 17years. For how long have you known Dr. Schlesinger? Ever talked with him? Were you ever in Vienna to see the children? How do you know whether they are better off with their mother than with their father? Where do you have your one sided informations from? You are not a member of the Beth Din Schlesinger vs. Schlesinger. If you were, you would have to listen to both sides before you'd make a Psak Din. I don't think I need to cite the place in the Gemoreh, where it says what the duties of a Dayan are. But if you want, I can supply you with that information too. If you answer to my reply, answer my questions please and don't tell me your SUBJECTIVE impressions about the father or the mother...I am sure you mean it well, but please be objectice, or at least try to.

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    2. Using your real name doesnt make your comment better. As a Rabbi you should know both parties, do you? You should hear both sides, did you? Probaly not. As a rabbi you should rely on proven facts, did you ever see the courts papers, or theose of the visitaion centers, did you ever ask one of her five lawyers why he threw her out, although she was payin a wealth? probably not. Did you talk to the Rabbis who do not support her? probably not......did you ever see the children? this is a huge failure of a rabbi.You really believe what-as you call her- a naive person tells you?
      She could easily make the truth come out by publishing all the official papers, why doesnt she?
      Neither the psychologist, nor one of the judges nor the father himself have problems with the truth coming out. They have nothing to hide.

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  64. bubbe I think you are sick and twisted. You clearly are very close to the father or are the father.
    whatever hurtful things you say you still are not thinking of the children. They should be allowed both parents in their lives. The boys are being denied their mother. That is more unfair to them than anyone.
    Remember they are not kids forever and it may well back fire one day the boys will want to be with Beth. I think you need to think about this. Lastly get yourself some english lessons. your grammer is terrible.

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    1. Cohen, how about your starting to take Hebrew lessons??? I bet my English grammer is better than your Hebrew grammer.

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    2. Steve Cohen, they are NOT being denied their mother. If only the mother would turn up every time for the visits. She claims that the father does not bring them regularly. Do you have any proof for that? Well, I have the proof that he does bring them regularly. If you can proof that it is not so, you win!!

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    3. Steve Cohen,
      you assume that everyone in the world must be a citizien of the British Empire. Well, I am not and I do think that my English, not being my native language, can be understood by all those, who want to understand. It is a chutzpah to tell me I should take English lessons. As I said, were your Hebrew, which is MY native language as good as your English, you could be quite proud of yourself. If my English is your biggest worry, then be it.

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    4. ok if you are saying the mother doesnt turn up to visits. name a few of them. I dont want to be told about last Sunday. if she cancels then prove it and give us dates.

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    5. Steve Cohen: let her prove that michael cancelled the visit.

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  65. is it also normal that a mother should pay to see her children? I think not..

    I would love love to have a chat to the father. its my dream as I would like to hear his side and ask him why he is doing this to his kids
    Michael fancy a chat?

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    1. Pink Lady- The father had to pay the same for more than a year, when the kids were with their "loving" and "oh, so caring" mother. Now it's the other way round. Simple, no??

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    2. Pink Lady...wow...you have strange dreams. That's all you want in your life? To have a chat with the father? I explained why the kids are with him. NO more explanations needed!!

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    3. but are the children happy. thats the issue. are they wondering why their munmy doesnt go to school. I am sure the father will try and brainwash them but a mothers bond is never broken.
      no one but no one is thinking of the boys at all. those poor kids.

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    4. oh, pink lady..don´t worry. the FATHER IS thinking of the children and really cares for them This is one of the reasons why he is not going public. A GOOD MOTHER WOULD NEVER do what beth is doing. Publishing pictures with full names and telling the world they are mentally ill.
      What do you think: how many of her followers know her in the real life, not only from the web? How many have seen the children? How can adults believe what they read on the internet without asking for a proof. Do you really think the whole of austria is against beth? Is she so important? I doubt it. There are 100s of divorces or custody cases per week. In most of them the mother gets custody. Dont you think that there must be serious issues if she did not get the children. The twins are in the best hand s they can be. How can beth know that there are 2 Fillipinos? She does not live with them and she claims they don´t speak. Who told her then?

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    5. One more point: maybe they do not speak when they are with her because of what they remember? They were with the mother for the first two years, maybe they were traumatised by her?

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    6. if I was on beths shoes I would have done exactly the same. why should a mother not speak out? course she should.
      They love their mother. The father must hate that. When they are with her they love to cuddle her and feel close to her. Why?

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  66. Pink lady a chat is a good idea. We go to Vienna and meet with Michael and he tells us all about it. He may also be so kind and introduce us to the children. I suggested Purim. Maybe his supporters can put our suggestions to him.
    If they are good caring people there in Vienna I am sure they will want to facilitate this as quickly as possible for everyone's sake especially the children.
    Fair? I think so.

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  67. I think it is a great idea Rina Jaffe. For the Megillah, he will be in Shul, which is a "neutral" place . Meet him there. See who he is, talk with him. I can suply you with the adress, if you really want to come.

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    1. Fair enough, I will be there. Will Mr Schlesinger be there with the children or does he think it is more appropriate to leave them at 'home' with his Filipino nannies?

      Please send me the address.

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  68. It seems to me that "rabi" eidenson was suffering from sexual abusion as a child. You can see all his blog is about child abuse. It must be a kind of therapy for him. I hope he will be recovering soon. Please g'd

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    1. naomi your profound "wisdom" and knowledge about Torah and Psychology is shameful. It embarrassing that you lack the seichel to understand how you are undermining Dr. Schlesinger's position.

      No I never suffered abuse and no a person doesn't have to be a victim of injustice to be concerned with justice - it does happen to be a Torah imperative.

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    2. JUstice, daastorah-do you know what justice is? alone your comment on naomi shows you probably don´t. Do you know any other Torah imperatives? I am sure your blog does not correspond to any of them.

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    3. Naomi you are really a sick person. Please get psychiatric help as soon as possible.

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  69. Maybe too late now to come on Sunday. I will bs travelling from London and need a definite arrangement. Can you organise a meeting please. Please you want tio help!

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    1. Rina: when you offered to come here, you must have known already that purim is on sunday, you know when they read the megilla. It does not need to arrange a meeting. Come to schul as you proposed and I am sure you will meet him there.

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    2. Frieda I am taking this matter seriously and I an travelling a long way. I don't want to take a chance of meeting Dr. Schlesinger. I think it best that we have a pre arranged meeting where he can tell me his side and produce the Court documents so any misunderstandings from can be cleared up.

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    3. In my opinion it is not him who has to show the court papers.It is the other side, she started making the case public, so maybe you have a meeting arranged with her, maybe when she is in manchester next time?

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    4. We know Beth's side of the story.
      It's only fair to hear michael's side., don't you think?

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    5. It doesn't make sense why the father (or someone close to him) doesn't want to put his side out on this blog or on a blog of his own. He clearly has a lot to say (as can be seen above), so if he feels he genuinely has a story, let him air it.

      Could it be that there is a more sinister reason why he doesn't want to issue a statement? Does he not want people to know the truth?

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  70. @Bubbe - since you obviously know Dr. Schlesinger's point of view - could you please explain why he tried committing Beth to a mental hospital, why she wasn't and why subsequent evaluations have failed to show evidence of mental illness?

    I assume that Dr. Schlesinger is not a psychiatrist and thus has no expertise in mental illness.

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  71. Excuse me Daas Torah, I really do not want to write on th internet. It is shameful and for the sake of Beth to be treated discreetly. Whether I am her supporter or not. I'l gladly call you in order to tell you details, if you'd give me a phone number (not a mobile please) Where do you have the information from that her tried committing Beth to a mental hospital?

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    1. The information was presented in Parliament. See link at top

      The best way to explain to the House what has happened is to go through the chronology of the events. Beth Schlesinger—her maiden name was Alexander— married Mr Schlesinger in October 2006. On 24 May 2009 the twins Samuel and Benjamin were born to the couple. Unfortunately the marriage then deteriorated and Mr Schlesinger became violent and abusive towards Beth Schlesinger and on 15 February 2010 Mr Schlesinger tried to have Beth committed to a mental hospital in Austria. Because there had been violence against Beth, however, the police were called and they removed Mr Schlesinger from the family home. He was given five minutes to pack his bags, and a restraining order was placed on him. He was subsequently given limited access to the children. Full custodywas given to Beth Schlesinger; he was given two hours’ supervised access, three times a week.

      1) Do you agree with the above paragraph? 2) If you don't want to explain Dr. Schlesinger's actions here on the blog - then please send me an email. I want to have the allegations in writing.

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    2. It is very unfair to ask Beth to respond to allegations that have been made anonymously. If the allegations are put to daas Torah under a genuine name and that person publicly stands by them, then that allows the forum for a fair debate. If those allegations are proved to be false and were made with malicious intent, than that should be made public too.

      If bubbe refuses to 'write on the internet' it is probably because he/she/they know they will be publicly refuted.

      I have never seen them hold back in being discrete for Beth's sake, certainly not after bubbes ranting above.

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    3. I wonder if the parliaments explanations are based on the court papers or on what Beth and her family told them.
      But why dont you ask beth to publish the court papers, you will probably find the answer there.

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    4. By the way: do you have the allegations beth made in writing? Could you publish it? Might be helpful.

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    5. Ali Gee: beth started with the allegations (cancelled visits) so why not prove it? It would not be a problem for her if it is true. And this is the way it usually works.

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    6. You're right, Beth posted up her allegations under her own name on her blog. Are you going to post your allegations under your name?

      Are you saying any of these allegations are false? If so, which ones, and what makes you think they are false?

      It normally works with you presenting some background as to who you are so that we have a context for your comments.

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  72. I have just caught up reading all of the above comments. I am a family lawyer in the uk. I have a few questions for either side

    1. do the maternal gransparents bave visiting rights. If no why not?

    2. where are the handovers being done at the moment?

    3.is the mother being made to pay or not?

    I have beem following this story for a while now but have remained neutral. I feel by the mother only seeing her children once a week is definitely going to effect their development.

    you can carry on this bitterness forever but what I say to my clients is that you created the children together so you should both have responsibility of them.

    I have one last sentence and that is please think about the children. If you could get a mediation now that would be best thing. Who would the mother and father allow to mediate.?

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    1. These questions are excellent. Bubbe, would you like to comment?

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    2. "I feel by the mother only seeing her children once a week is definitely going to effect their development."
      you may indeed be right, but being a lawyer doesnt make your opinion any more important than anyone else here.this not your area of expertise.

      "what I say to my clients is that you created the children together so you should both have responsibility of them"
      The same here as above!
      More importantly according to our Torah they both have responsibilities but they are not the same for both parents.

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    3. Emes, are you a rabbi? Is Torah your area of expertise?

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    4. Emes, try telling the Austrian court that the parents created the children together. Beth is a true jewish mother fighting for her children.

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  73. Hahaha, Bubbe, love what you have called yourself, you certainly do not sound like a typical bubee/bubbeleh or bubbeh, however you want to spell it. More like a bubbeh-myseh!!!!

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